Only when you know pain will you know GOD?

[pwii]

Things have been very stressful for me over the past few days. Its the kind that would put tears on your eyes and then you stop crying later on... but then after awhile or when something out of the blue reminds you of that stressful event, you suddenly start getting upset and crying again.

I cry because I feel powerless and there's nothing I can do about it.

And then I suddenly remember a debate I had a long time ago with a Christian on another forum. He basically told me (the jist of a 10 paragraph long incoherent rambling with the word "God" in almost every sentence as well as random bible verses that arent even related):

"Once God has knocked you down HARD enough, you will realize that there is a GOD. And this GOD is a BEING and NOT an energy like what you claim God is. You havent:
- had your father taken from you at age 13... therefore making me grow up into a man at age 13
- been raped
- been bulled throughout childhood
- felt like you have nowhere to run
- had a gun pulled on you
- been shot multiple times
- been beaten up by cops
- been satanically ritually abused
- had demons (LITERALLY) attack you
- had your girlfriend leave you right at your lowest point in life
- etc. etc. etc.
But you get the point. He's basically told me that only when you know pain will you know that there is a God.

I know what pain is. But I admit I havent been through all that he said and he's got more "battle scars" and that is what led him to believe there is a God and turn to the Bible and accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and his Savior.

I dunno what to say but at this point I really feel like asking God for help. But at the same time I am reluctant because I have this deeply ingrained belief that only the weak-minded look to a "God" for help. And I sure as hell have seen alot of people who seem to have been abandoned by "God".

So anyway... do you agree with this statement:
Only when you know pain, will you know God.

I am a Christian, and I think I speak for the majority of Christians when I say EVERYTHING THIS GUY SAID IS COMPLETE CRAP. This guy was under the assumption that Jesus was putting him through that because he did something wrong, as punishment to get him to repent. That Jesus was literally trying to scare the hell out of him. In actuality, there is no way to know why it happened, and it doesn't matter.

Now, the question you should ask yourself is "Why do bad things happen to good people?". Answer: they don't. Because there isn't a single 'good person' that has ever lived. Definitly not me, and not you. Not mother freakin Teresa.

See, the Bible says that whoever sins (screws up) falls short of the glory of God, and is condemned to hell. Saying that you're a good person is like Hitler comparing himself to Stalin. You can just hear him: "I only killed a 60 million people, but STALIN! Stalin killed over a hundred million!" Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

BUT

2000 years ago, Jesus died on the cross for all your sins. This means you are forgiven, for any sins you might commit in life ever.

See, some people think that a loving god would never condemn anybody to hell. And that's true. But because He's perfect, he gives you the opportunity to reject Him. He gave Adam and Eve the apple. And he gives us this life so that we can reject heaven if we choose.

Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

I dunno what to say but at this point I really feel like asking God for help. But at the same time I am reluctant because I have this deeply ingrained belief that only the weak-minded look to a "God" for help. And I sure as hell have seen alot of people who seem to have been abandoned by "God".

Why are you reluctant to ask Jesus for help? He's been helping you all your life. From the moment you didn't die as you were being born, to your parents being able to feed you, to giving you clothes, love, shelter, and having an entire PLANET to live in! God created the very amino acids that make up your DNA, He created the property of electromagnetic forces that connects your neurons to enable you to think, to creating the KREBS cycle so that you could breathe. There isn't a single person ever who hasn't been helped by God. Don't be afraid to ask Jesus for help. This isn't a test to see if you can make it without Him.

Also, Jesus never abandons anyone. Why would anyone think that? God never promised that life would be easy. He won't take away free will from people who make your life suck. He won't force perfection on you by making you and your life perfect. And remember, no matter how bad it gets, it could always be worse. America could be in nuclear ruins, and you could be the only captives of radical muslim terrorists.

If you ask God for help, He makes no guarantees your life will be better in circumstance, but you will be better equipped to deal with it because JESUS WILL BE WITH YOU. You can RELY on Him. If you rely on someone else, they can A) Change, B) Die, C) Let you down, D) Not be there when you need them, E) Not give you the right advice, etc. Jesus only died once, and He's not going to do it again.

I'm praying for you.

[trenton_dawn]

Now, the question you should ask yourself is "Why do bad things happen to good people?". Answer: they don't. Because there isn't a single 'good person' that has ever lived. Definitly not me, and not you. Not mother freakin Teresa.

See, the Bible says that whoever sins (screws up) falls short of the glory of God, and is condemned to hell. Saying that you're a good person is like Hitler comparing himself to Stalin. You can just hear him: "I only killed a 60 million people, but STALIN! Stalin killed over a hundred million!" Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

BUT

2000 years ago, Jesus died on the cross for all your sins. This means you are forgiven, for any sins you might commit in life ever.

See, some people think that a loving god would never condemn anybody to hell. And that's true. But because He's perfect, he gives you the opportunity to reject Him. He gave Adam and Eve the apple. And he gives us this life so that we can reject heaven if we choose.

Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

I have to say, I cant really agree with this argument. Aren't you basically saying that any bad thing that happens to us is our own fault? That's not true, though. And why shouldn't make sense? How can someone have faith in something that they don't even understand?

[stripedwine]

I am a Christian, and I think I speak for the majority of Christians when I say EVERYTHING THIS GUY SAID IS COMPLETE CRAP. This guy was under the assumption that Jesus was putting him through that because he did something wrong, as punishment to get him to repent. That Jesus was literally trying to scare the hell out of him. In actuality, there is no way to know why it happened, and it doesn't matter.

Now, the question you should ask yourself is "Why do bad things happen to good people?". Answer: they don't. Because there isn't a single 'good person' that has ever lived. Definitly not me, and not you. Not mother freakin Teresa.

See, the Bible says that whoever sins (screws up) falls short of the glory of God, and is condemned to hell. Saying that you're a good person is like Hitler comparing himself to Stalin. You can just hear him: "I only killed a 60 million people, but STALIN! Stalin killed over a hundred million!" Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

BUT

2000 years ago, Jesus died on the cross for all your sins. This means you are forgiven, for any sins you might commit in life ever.

See, some people think that a loving god would never condemn anybody to hell. And that's true. But because He's perfect, he gives you the opportunity to reject Him. He gave Adam and Eve the apple. And he gives us this life so that we can reject heaven if we choose.

Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

I dunno what to say but at this point I really feel like asking God for help. But at the same time I am reluctant because I have this deeply ingrained belief that only the weak-minded look to a "God" for help. And I sure as hell have seen alot of people who seem to have been abandoned by "God".

Why are you reluctant to ask Jesus for help? He's been helping you all your life. From the moment you didn't die as you were being born, to your parents being able to feed you, to giving you clothes, love, shelter, and having an entire PLANET to live in! God created the very amino acids that make up your DNA, He created the property of electromagnetic forces that connects your neurons to enable you to think, to creating the KREBS cycle so that you could breathe. There isn't a single person ever who hasn't been helped by God. Don't be afraid to ask Jesus for help. This isn't a test to see if you can make it without Him.

Also, Jesus never abandons anyone. Why would anyone think that? God never promised that life would be easy. He won't take away free will from people who make your life suck. He won't force perfection on you by making you and your life perfect. And remember, no matter how bad it gets, it could always be worse. America could be in nuclear ruins, and you could be the only captives of radical muslim terrorists.

If you ask God for help, He makes no guarantees your life will be better in circumstance, but you will be better equipped to deal with it because JESUS WILL BE WITH YOU. You can RELY on Him. If you rely on someone else, they can A) Change, B) Die, C) Let you down, D) Not be there when you need them, E) Not give you the right advice, etc. Jesus only died once, and He's not going to do it again.

I'm praying for you.

Christ, you're just asking for someone like me to come in and pick this apart, aren't you?

[blankd]

>>There are a lot of words here.

Son I think you need to take some time to look over what you just said.

[Loverofpiggies]

Now, the question you should ask yourself is "Why do bad things happen to good people?". Answer: they don't. Because there isn't a single 'good person' that has ever lived. Definitly not me, and not you. Not mother freakin Teresa.

See, the Bible says that whoever sins (screws up) falls short of the glory of God, and is condemned to hell. Saying that you're a good person is like Hitler comparing himself to Stalin. You can just hear him: "I only killed a 60 million people, but STALIN! Stalin killed over a hundred million!" Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

BUT

2000 years ago, Jesus died on the cross for all your sins. This means you are forgiven, for any sins you might commit in life ever.

See, some people think that a loving god would never condemn anybody to hell. And that's true. But because He's perfect, he gives you the opportunity to reject Him. He gave Adam and Eve the apple. And he gives us this life so that we can reject heaven if we choose.

Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

I have to say, I cant really agree with this argument. Aren't you basically saying that any bad thing that happens to us is our own fault? That's not true, though. And why shouldn't make sense? How can someone have faith in something that they don't even understand?

If something doesn't make sense, sitting back and accepting it is... yeah, stupid. Decent example, America having slaves doesn't make sense. A free country with slaves? I'd question that.

[pwii]

Now, the question you should ask yourself is "Why do bad things happen to good people?". Answer: they don't. Because there isn't a single 'good person' that has ever lived. Definitly not me, and not you. Not mother freakin Teresa.

See, the Bible says that whoever sins (screws up) falls short of the glory of God, and is condemned to hell. Saying that you're a good person is like Hitler comparing himself to Stalin. You can just hear him: "I only killed a 60 million people, but STALIN! Stalin killed over a hundred million!" Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

BUT

2000 years ago, Jesus died on the cross for all your sins. This means you are forgiven, for any sins you might commit in life ever.

See, some people think that a loving god would never condemn anybody to hell. And that's true. But because He's perfect, he gives you the opportunity to reject Him. He gave Adam and Eve the apple. And he gives us this life so that we can reject heaven if we choose.

Does this not make sense? Well, it shouldn't. Because we, with our imperfect human minds cannot ever understand it completely. That's why it's called faith.

I have to say, I cant really agree with this argument. Aren't you basically saying that any bad thing that happens to us is our own fault? That's not true, though. And why shouldn't make sense? How can someone have faith in something that they don't even understand?

Everything bad that happens to you isn't your fault. It's just that you deserve it. I'm not saying that I don't, I'm saying that everyone does.

And it's not that we don't understand it, it's that we never could understand all of it. Never completely. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. It's...hm...It's like a child, understanding that his parents love him, but not understanding why. Not understanding how. It's like them not understanding when they get punished. And when you're older, you begin to understand it all. It's like that.

[trenton_dawn]

Everything bad that happens to you isn't your fault. It's just that you deserve it. I'm not saying that I don't, I'm saying that everyone does.

We deserve it? According to the Bible, without Christ, we deserve death because of our sin, from Adam. I'm assuming that's what you're referring to? Rom 5:12: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—" But nowhere does it say anything about bad stuff that happens to us. Some of it could be our own fault (consequences of decisions we make), some of it you could attribute to our body's imperfection (getting grievously sick, I suppose), but some of it has nothing to do with us. If someone came up to you and stabbed you with a knife or something, there's no way you deserve it.

And it's not that we don't understand it, it's that we never could understand all of it. Never completely. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. It's...hm...It's like a child, understanding that his parents love him, but not understanding why. Not understanding how. It's like them not understanding when they get punished. And when you're older, you begin to understand it all. It's like that.

What I don't agree with here is this: why would God give us the power of reason if he didn't intend for us to use or need it?

[Loverofpiggies]

Everything bad that happens to you isn't your fault. It's just that you deserve it. I'm not saying that I don't, I'm saying that everyone does.

If someone is brutally murdered, raped, tortured, whatever, they deserve it? I'm calling some serious messed up bullshit on this.

I guess people can just say "Oh, I raped that chick, but its okay she deserved it."? We wont even need prisons in the future, because they're clearly just acting out God's will.

And last time I checked, when you punish a kid you usually just send them to their room or put them in a corner for five minutes, not send them to a place with eternal misery, torture and suffering. I'm old enough to understand that. Also what Trenton Dawn said, if I don't understand something, I'll go research it TO understand it, not sit there and accept my ignorance on the subject.

[pwii]

Everything bad that happens to you isn't your fault. It's just that you deserve it. I'm not saying that I don't, I'm saying that everyone does.

We deserve it? According to the Bible, without Christ, we deserve death because of our sin, from Adam. I'm assuming that's what you're referring to? Rom 5:12: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—" But nowhere does it say anything about bad stuff that happens to us. Some of it could be our own fault (consequences of decisions we make), some of it you could attribute to our body's imperfection (getting grievously sick, I suppose), but some of it has nothing to do with us. If someone came up to you and stabbed you with a knife or something, there's no way you deserve it.

And it's not that we don't understand it, it's that we never could understand all of it. Never completely. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. It's...hm...It's like a child, understanding that his parents love him, but not understanding why. Not understanding how. It's like them not understanding when they get punished. And when you're older, you begin to understand it all. It's like that.

What I don't agree with here is this: why would God give us the power of reason if he didn't intend for us to use or need it?

If a serial killer was accidentally run over by a truck, you'd say he deserved it, wouldn't you? Same basic principle.

And God does give intend for us to use the gift of reason. The main reason we can't understand it is because we are imperfect, and screw the whole thought process up.

Everything bad that happens to you isn't your fault. It's just that you deserve it. I'm not saying that I don't, I'm saying that everyone does.

If someone is brutally murdered, raped, tortured, whatever, they deserve it? I'm calling some serious messed up bullshit on this.

I guess people can just say "Oh, I raped that chick, but its okay she deserved it."? We wont even need prisons in the future, because they're clearly just acting out God's will.

And last time I checked, when you punish a kid you usually just send them to their room or put them in a corner for five minutes, not send them to a place with eternal misery, torture and suffering. I'm old enough to understand that. Also what Trenton Dawn said, if I don't understand something, I'll go research it TO understand it, not sit there and accept my ignorance on the subject.

A) Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying.

B) No, not at all. See, here's where it's going to get confusing.

There are two ethics: Lower ethics, and higher.

Higher ethics says that yes, you deserve everything that could ever happen to you. However, God doesn't let a lot of stuff that could happen to you happen because of His mercy. If God were to completely abolish all wrong, then we'd be born into a perfect world, with no way out. But forced perfection isn't perfection. So, Jesus lets some crap happen, and stops other crap. To tell Him where to draw the line and say 'this amount of crap should never happen to a person' would be presumptuous.

Lower ethics are supposed to be applicable to everyone, no matter what religion they are. Because everyone receives a moral compass by the Holy Spirit, and can commonly agree on certain things. If you try and combine lower and higher ethics, you wind up with a theocracy, which is ALWAYS bad. God Himself said so. The Israelites wanted a King, and He said 'Ok, but you aren't going to like it.' Before that time, Jesus let them govern themselves, along with Him sending prophets to guide them from time to time. BTW, 70% of all Israelite kings were horrible rulers.

The muslims that are terrorists live in a theocracy. See, if both sides just say "Well, are religion is the right one, so a theocracy is ok", then to third parties, there's no difference.

See lower ethics dictates punishment for people who break the earthly law. They say that rapists should go to jail. And so they should. But personally, that rapist will either accept the Holy Spirit and fall under the forgiveness of Christ, or not, and go to hell. Letting him go free is basically saying two wrongs make a right. Wronging someone just because they deserve it is COMPLETELY different from the judicial system set up by the government. See, revenge is just another wrong. It's pointless. Put punishment through the government is different because A) rules are there to deter criminals through fear of punishment, B) To keep criminals from wronging more people. The only instance in which you could rightly take the law into your own hands is in this scenario:

Bob is a dictator, ruler of his own country, and makes the laws. You can't turn him in to the U.N. Because that would mean war, which they would never agree to. So, the only way to stop him from desolating his subjects would be to kill/ otherwise incarcerate him.

Hope that clears things up.

[Amante]

If a serial killer was accidentally run over by a truck, you'd say he deserved it, wouldn't you? Same basic principle.

Not really. A serial killer is responsible for what they have done. Just because there is no such thing as a good person, does not mean, that we are all bad people. Just because it's said that we are sinners from birth does not mean that we deserve any bad thing that might come our way.

[blankd]

Higher ethics says that yes, you deserve everything that could ever happen to you. However, God doesn't let a lot of stuff that could happen to you happen because of His mercy. If God were to completely abolish all wrong, then we'd be born into a perfect world, with no way out. But forced perfection isn't perfection. So, Jesus lets some crap happen, and stops other crap. To tell Him where to draw the line and say 'this amount of crap should never happen to a person' would be presumptuous.

Due to free will existing your statement of how God/Jesus prevents/lets wrong happen is completely out of whack. What people inflict on other people is NOT an act of God/Jesus as that would be in defiance of God/Jesus's "granting" of free will. To deny this is foolishness even by your own creed, at most God/Jesus can "control" aspects of nature, chance or things that are not free will, you can even wiggle in that "nudges" are sent to people but it would be erroneous to say that God/Jesus inspires the things their own doctrine condemns (ie: lust, violence, etc). To say that a person who is raped always inherently "deserves" it is asscrack backwards as the "force" that inflicts it is human and all humans have free will.

S/N: And for the love of logic, please read your own stuff through before posting.

[Cookieluv246]

Ya'll having fun?

[Warlin]

Ya'll having fun?

I think they are.
Also that made me laugh. Thank you, Cookieluv.

[blankd]

Ya'll having fun?

Theology- fun for the whole forum~!

[redandblack64]

Ya'll having fun?

Theology- fun for the whole forum~!

And inspiration for me, as my next comic is going to explore theology.