I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

[Cave]

You know what? You're right. That was condescending.

But I think your all missing the point; The point I was trying to convey was that Christians need to be willing to look into things and think things through. They need to be willing to believe that God would have a reason for saying that homosexuality is wrong, even if my theories on the matter are incorrect. I said the thing about people who aren't believers because I was expecting people to try to counter what I said by trying to disprove the Bible, thus diverting from the point. I should have let people respond before assuming this, and I apologize.

Thank you very much for the apology and clarification. This is the kind of respect I'm talking about showing whether you agree with someone or not.

[desideraht]

Apologies for the repetitive posts, I am attempting to condense them.

Dude. I am NOT Catholic. I am nowhere close to Catholic. I am AGNOSTIC. (As I stated already) I am not defending "my" beliefs. I am saying that how you talked about another religion was ignorant and hateful.

Compare what you said to Molly's post which actually wasn't just a sweeping generalization of one religion and even provided evidence.

You said in another post you want respect when talking about religion. You need to show respect first in order to get it back.

Did I say I want respect? Let me clarify: no one deserves respect. But a decent person will generally give it. There are fair exceptions, however.

But this is not the point of the thread, nor does it help the OP. Again, apologies for the derailment, and should you wish to argue further with me or with Cave, please let's just keep it to a PM, eh?

Pretty sure it was everyone else who jumped on my post and could not let the OP take it at face value. She has a brain of her own, it is her discretion what she thinks about my post. I agree with you that this has gone too far but I can't exactly say that's my fault. I stated a view people didn't like and they felt it was worth debating, which it is not. Not here.

My question is, are you really loving that person? Or are you just indulging what you think you can't control?

Why do you seem so eager to assume it must be the latter?

I agree with this. I don't get why religious (or rather, just anyone not comfortable with homosexuality) people think that homosexuality is an "urge" anymore than being straight is. Can anyone explain that? u.u

They need to be willing to believe that God would have a reason for saying that homosexuality is wrong, even if my theories on the matter are incorrect.

Why are you so certain on defending the idea that God thinks homosexuality is wrong? Seems like you're trying to push what YOU think God is thinking. If your theories have a possibility of being incorrect, you also have a possibility of this theory that 'God thinks homosexuality is wrong' being incorrect as well. I have friends who are homosexual, and religious, and never once thought God would think this way about them.

I agree with this position as well. Hebrew scholars will tell you that the passage translated, which calls homosexuality an "abomination," is NOT referring to sin as much as it refers to social deviancy. And not all deviancy is sin. It just means it deviates from the norm. That does not include, however, where God states that "spilled semen" is sin (i.e. masturbation).

Except that atheism is not learned/taught. It is a lack of a belief, not a belief in itself. The fact is that atheism is not about "making a choice," it is about not participating in faith. You don't have to be smart to reject religion. You also don't have to be smart to be part of religion.

Couldn't disagree with this any more if I tried.

To take the position of Atheism, the belief that there is no creator, doesn't have much merit without any understanding of Science, or faith.

I'm an Atheist because I'm able to back that position up when confronted by the questions of a believer, and in order to answer those questions, I have to know my shit when it comes to science.

If you didn't have any prerequisite knowledge of science and faith to back your position up and answer questions, then your belief is flawed.

Atheism is not "certainty that there is no God". That is "strong atheism". Atheism in itself is the LACK of a belief in a deity, not so much saying "there can't be one." I am an agnostic atheist, meaning that I make the KNOWLEDGE claim that I CONCEDE that I cannot disprove God, but y stating that I am an atheist, that says that I HIGHLY doubt God" existence. I don't HAVE to justify that feeling with science, even though I do. I can say that not everyone is an atheist for the same reason and you are free to have your reason but understand that it does not apply to everyone.

Being an atheist does not require some sort of intellectual/knowledgeable "prerequisite". That would be the elitist mode of much of the atheist community. Plenty of Buddhists, for instance, are atheists. Most of them are NOT scientists, they are philosophers. They rely on reason more than evidence.

@ Everyone: This all being said, this debate is not fit here. My views did not prompt a debate. Differing views should be allowed here without people arguing amongst themselves about someone else's advice. It gives the OP a choice to look over different points of view, "extreme" as they may be. If a religious person can preach in this thread, I should be able to do the opposite. It's up to her to decide how that makes her feel. She has a CHOICE, don't make it for her. She has every right to have a relationship with God (and I did not say otherwise) but I DO feel that many Catholic groups are unreasonably extreme, I am speaking from MY experiences, so yours are not very relevant... Her experiences (as she describes them) sound more similar to mine, and I think that's what matters here. So you were part of a GREAT Catholic community. It doesn't sound like she is, from her description.

[Cave]

Did I say I want respect? Let me clarify: no one deserves respect. But a decent person will generally give it. There are fair exceptions, however.

I interpreted one of your recent posts in the Let's Vent thread being about not being shown respect by others when you discuss religion. My bad if this was not the case.

I disagree though. Everyone deserves respect. Though that isn't to say that sometimes there aren't people who don't also deserve a good slap or punch to the face though.

[Cave]

@ Everyone: This all being said, this debate is not fit here. My views did not prompt a debate. Differing views should be allowed here without people arguing amongst themselves about someone else's advice. It gives the OP a choice to look over different points of view, "extreme" as they may be. If a religious person can preach in this thread, I should be able to do the opposite. It's up to her to decide how that makes her feel. She has a CHOICE, don't make it for her. She has every right to have a relationship with God (and I did not say otherwise) but I DO feel that many Catholic groups are unreasonably extreme, I am speaking from MY experiences, so yours are not very relevant... Her experiences (as she describes them) sound more similar to mine, and I think that's what matters here. So you were part of a GREAT Catholic community. It doesn't sound like she is, from her description.

Why do you keep trying to dig yourself a deeper hole? (Really, I was fine with your post before you added this in....)

I keep trying to understand and be reasonable with you and yet you continuously belittle everything I have said. My response to you was not to the OP at all so I don't even get why you bring this up at all. You made a bad judgement call and I called you out and disproved you on it yet you seem to feel that I was trying to attack you. I'm sorry you felt that way, it was not my intention at all.

Look at this very thread: Ultima527 had brought up his(her?) own views and I pointed out (albeit not in the nicest way) that what he said was done rudely. He took a look back at what he said and realized that it was.

You (seemingly) want to not be hateful but I was pointing out the parts where you were hateful. You have not bothered to reconsider your own words at all.

[trenton_dawn]

@ Everyone: This all being said, this debate is not fit here. My views did not prompt a debate. Differing views should be allowed here without people arguing amongst themselves about someone else's advice. It gives the OP a choice to look over different points of view, "extreme" as they may be. If a religious person can preach in this thread, I should be able to do the opposite. It's up to her to decide how that makes her feel. She has a CHOICE, don't make it for her. She has every right to have a relationship with God (and I did not say otherwise) but I DO feel that many Catholic groups are unreasonably extreme, I am speaking from MY experiences, so yours are not very relevant... Her experiences (as she describes them) sound more similar to mine, and I think that's what matters here. So you were part of a GREAT Catholic community. It doesn't sound like she is, from her description.

In general, I agree with this, especially in the context of this forum, and the nature of the topic we are discussing. Ultimately, it's up to the OP to decide what is appropriate in the context of this discussion (within reason), and, absent her response, we should not be speaking for her. However, in this specific instance, she specifically phrased her question in terms of her religious beliefs in Catholicism, so keep in mind that when you talk about the Catholics and their church without respect, even though what you say may be true, it will most likely feel like an attack to her, wouldn't you agree? An attack on her beliefs, and those of her family? I'm not saying you shouldn't have brought those points up and I know you feel strongly about those issues but there must have been a more tactful or more understanding way. By the same token, what may feel like preaching to you, and what would probably be considered as such in most threads, may not be so in this specific case, although I would also frown upon religious advice given without sufficient respect.

[desideraht]

@ Everyone: This all being said, this debate is not fit here. My views did not prompt a debate. Differing views should be allowed here without people arguing amongst themselves about someone else's advice. It gives the OP a choice to look over different points of view, "extreme" as they may be. If a religious person can preach in this thread, I should be able to do the opposite. It's up to her to decide how that makes her feel. She has a CHOICE, don't make it for her. She has every right to have a relationship with God (and I did not say otherwise) but I DO feel that many Catholic groups are unreasonably extreme, I am speaking from MY experiences, so yours are not very relevant... Her experiences (as she describes them) sound more similar to mine, and I think that's what matters here. So you were part of a GREAT Catholic community. It doesn't sound like she is, from her description.

In general, I agree with this, especially in the context of this forum, and the nature of the topic we are discussing. Ultimately, it's up to the OP to decide what is appropriate in the context of this discussion (within reason), and, absent her response, we should not be speaking for her. However, in this specific instance, she specifically phrased her question in terms of her religious beliefs in Catholicism, so keep in mind that when you talk about the Catholics and their church without respect, even though what you say may be true, it will most likely feel like an attack to her, wouldn't you agree? An attack on her beliefs, and those of her family? I'm not saying you shouldn't have brought those points up and I know you feel strongly about those issues but there must have been a more tactful or more understanding way. By the same token, what may feel like preaching to you, and what would probably be considered as such in most threads, may not be so in this specific case, although I would also frown upon religious advice given without sufficient respect.

I see where you're coming from, but I'd love to see her give another perspective a chance. It felt to me that she was speaking reluctantly about Catholicism. I could be wrong, but if I'm right, my position could help her. And if I'm wrong ,the worst that could happen is that she doesn't like me. Her well-being is at no risk here... And that's all that really matters in this situation. I don't care much for my reputation amongst religious people.

I appreciate your moderate response. I can speak frankly; I was being rather aggressive. Nothing about that was really an accident, though. I'm really tired of people sugarcoating the subject. This is what I'd call a dose of "harsh reality". If we only present religionists with a dumbed down version of other perspectives, they think the world is much more dull/mild than it really is.

To put is simply, what people think of me means less to me than the chances of this girl breaking out of a bad situation. It's not necessarily Catholicism itself as much as it is obviously the church(es) these people go to. I can only hope that regardless of what she chooses, she chooses health. As a gay and transsexual person myself, I can relate to her situation. I have had religious people reject and harass me. I have had to make hard decisions, and destroy friendships, to survive. But I am a hell of a lot happier now.

@ Cave: Since your replies are basically just personal, I see no reason to continue the discussion... That would be hi-jacking the thread. I also am not interested in discussing it in PMs after your threat...

[trenton_dawn]

I appreciate your moderate response. I can speak frankly; I was being rather aggressive. Nothing about that was really an accident, though. I'm really tired of people sugarcoating the subject. This is what I'd call a dose of "harsh reality". If we only present religionists with a dumbed down version of other perspectives, they think the world is much more dull/mild than it really is.

To put is simply, what people think of me means less to me than the chances of this girl breaking out of a bad situation. It's not necessarily Catholicism itself as much as it is obviously the church(es) these people go to. I can only hope that regardless of what she chooses, she chooses health. As a gay and transsexual person myself, I can relate to her situation. I have had religious people reject and harass me. I have had to make hard decisions, and destroy friendships, to survive. But I am a hell of a lot happier now.

The "harsh reality" approach is not very effective. Truth may be harsh, but the manner in which we present it does not have to be. It is certainly possible to present someone with a dissenting opinion, even a strongly dissenting opinion, in a manner which is respectful, yet still accurate. For example, let's imagine the "harsh reality" approach that a Christian might take in this thread. "Being homosexual is a sin! You are disobeying God! There's just no getting around it!" Would that be effective at all? In fact, I'm sure you would agree it's more likely to be hurtful, both to anyone reading it, and to the Christian's argument. And I fear that your words may be having that effect.

I understand that you prioritize the OP's emotional and mental well-being over anyone's opinion of you, and I think that's a good thing. I certainly understand that you don't care what religious people think about you. But the OP may be one of those religious people, and, on the off chance that she returns to this thread and reads your words, I would hope that you care whether they might hurt her or not. Now, I personally don't think you've crossed the line. Your words seem a little aggressive for my taste but I would hope that most people are resilient enough to weather them. But it's definitely something to keep in mind.

[desideraht]

I appreciate your moderate response. I can speak frankly; I was being rather aggressive. Nothing about that was really an accident, though. I'm really tired of people sugarcoating the subject. This is what I'd call a dose of "harsh reality". If we only present religionists with a dumbed down version of other perspectives, they think the world is much more dull/mild than it really is.

To put is simply, what people think of me means less to me than the chances of this girl breaking out of a bad situation. It's not necessarily Catholicism itself as much as it is obviously the church(es) these people go to. I can only hope that regardless of what she chooses, she chooses health. As a gay and transsexual person myself, I can relate to her situation. I have had religious people reject and harass me. I have had to make hard decisions, and destroy friendships, to survive. But I am a hell of a lot happier now.

The "harsh reality" approach is not very effective. Truth may be harsh, but the manner in which we present it does not have to be. It is certainly possible to present someone with a dissenting opinion, even a strongly dissenting opinion, in a manner which is respectful, yet still accurate. For example, let's imagine the "harsh reality" approach that a Christian might take in this thread. "Being homosexual is a sin! You are disobeying God! There's just no getting around it!" Would that be effective at all? In fact, I'm sure you would agree it's more likely to be hurtful, both to anyone reading it, and to the Christian's argument. And I fear that your words may be having that effect.

I understand that you prioritize the OP's emotional and mental well-being over anyone's opinion of you, and I think that's a good thing. I certainly understand that you don't care what religious people think about you. But the OP may be one of those religious people, and, on the off chance that she returns to this thread and reads your words, I would hope that you care whether they might hurt her or not. Now, I personally don't think you've crossed the line. Your words seem a little aggressive for my taste but I would hope that most people are resilient enough to weather them. But it's definitely something to keep in mind.

I can agree with that. Most distracting is that my post was provocative enough that a ton of people jumped on it. My intended message has probably been completely overlooked by now. I suppose you could say I've learned from this experience. >.< I have only recently been "open" about my opposition to dogmatic faith, so I do come down a bit more than just heavy-handed.

Even though this isn't a support thread for me... I appreciate your advice. I will keep this in mind and I hope to better express myself... I'm really not a mean guy, I can just get carried away. >.>

[Cave]

@ Cave: Since your replies are basically just personal, I see no reason to continue the discussion... That would be hi-jacking the thread. I also am not interested in discussing it in PMs after your threat...

Point out the exact quote in which I "threatened" you. Please!

edit:

It's not necessarily Catholicism itself as much as it is obviously the church(es) these people go to.

Now THIS is the kind of statement you should have made instead of your original post.

I just want to make this clear: I have no issue with your beliefs (or "lack of" beliefs). What all of my posts have been about is your attitude while discussing said beliefs.

[desideraht]

I'm not entirely sure why you're continuing this...

[Elastikid]

Homosexuality is no more a choice than being OCD is a choice, or being depressed or naturally perky is a choice, or having synesthesia is a choice. It is determined primarily by genetics. Did any of you "choose" to be straight? Of course not.

I defy any male here to tell me about an experience he had where he first "decided" that he would find the female form attractive. This is not the case, your massive levels of pubescent testosterone sex hormones determined that you'd oggle that rack.

In fact, did any of you choose what your favorite food or favorite color is? No. In fact, to anyone but you, those "choices" would seem to be rather arbitrary. The reason that your favorite food is your favorite food, or your favorite color is your favorite color, is because of a complex set of neural pathways that were set up both by genetics and your environment.

We do have free will and the experience of free will when we act in accordance with our own mental desires.
What we don't have is the free will to change these desires. "Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills."

Though science has not yet found a "gay gene," I am confident that with all of the advances in genetic research, one will be found sometime in the near future. And the religious extremists who have constantly said that homosexuality is a choice and have encouraged legislation to bolster this misconception in society as well as sent any sexually deviant children to what are effectively re-education camps will have a hell of a lot to answer for.

And all of these other arguments will pretty much become irrelevant.

I eagerly await that day.

[adrilahan]

I'm going to put my two cents in here. My situation isn't the same as yours, Kairin, but I hope that somehow what I say can help you in some way.

I'm not Christian. Ultimately, the big deciding factor for why I'm not Christian comes down to this: if the word of God was written by mortal man, how can we be sure mortal man hasn't made a mistake in writing it?

My faith is not any of the organized religions, and really is a code of beliefs just for me, which borrows from many religions. Ultimately, my spirituality means I believe this: If you are happy with yourself, and you are harming no-one, you are doing the right thing. If you are not happy with yourself, but you are harming no-one, ask yourself whether it is because someone else told you to be unhappy with yourself, or whether it was your own decision. If it was because of someone else, but you can honestly say you can still be happy with yourself if you ignore their words, then the problem is with them, not with you.

Most importantly, I want to tell you that you are not alone.This is where people laugh at me! That's okay, I laugh too, sometimes. It is ironic! They laugh because I am a predominantly homosexual man in a woman's body, which sounds stupid unless people understand that sexual preference, physical gender (sex), and gender are not all so clear-cut as woman is woman and loves men, and man is man and loves women.

[desideraht]

They laugh because I am a predominantly homosexual man in a woman's body, which sounds stupid unless people understand that sexual preference, physical gender (sex), and gender are not all so clear-cut as woman is woman and loves men, and man is man and loves women.

I understand you. I am a female-to-male transsexual undergoing a sex change, and though I am pansexual, I am also primarily gay. I am not sure if you identify as trans but there are a lot of people who feel the way you do. :>

[adrilahan]

They laugh because I am a predominantly homosexual man in a woman's body, which sounds stupid unless people understand that sexual preference, physical gender (sex), and gender are not all so clear-cut as woman is woman and loves men, and man is man and loves women.

I understand you. I am a female-to-male transsexual undergoing a sex change, and though I am pansexual, I am also primarily gay. I am not sure if you identify as trans but there are a lot of people who feel the way you do. :>

I do identify as trans, but surgery cannot achieve what I want. Close, but not quite the cigar I'm talking about, lol. I've come to the conclusion that it's better for me to learn to accept looking like a woman when I'm naked, and dressing like a tomboy the rest of the time. Bonus: I've always dressed like a tomboy, but stylishly so, so when I'm dressing to match what I identify as, my husband can still be happy too

[desideraht]

They laugh because I am a predominantly homosexual man in a woman's body, which sounds stupid unless people understand that sexual preference, physical gender (sex), and gender are not all so clear-cut as woman is woman and loves men, and man is man and loves women.

I understand you. I am a female-to-male transsexual undergoing a sex change, and though I am pansexual, I am also primarily gay. I am not sure if you identify as trans but there are a lot of people who feel the way you do. :>

I do identify as trans, but surgery cannot achieve what I want. Close, but not quite the cigar I'm talking about, lol. I've come to the conclusion that it's better for me to learn to accept looking like a woman when I'm naked, and dressing like a tomboy the rest of the time. Bonus: I've always dressed like a tomboy, but stylishly so, so when I'm dressing to match what I identify as, my husband can still be happy too

I'll never have a penis but I would rather be a man with a vagina than... idk a man with a female body? It's your personal choice, and your comfort zone, that matters to you, however. I personally am taking testosterone to achieve male secondary sexual characteristics (male voice, body hair, muscle development, sexual changes, etc) and I also want chest surgery to have a flat male chest (at present I am only an A cup). With chest surgery I can change all of my legal documentation to male as well. I'll stop there because I can't have the proper genital reconstruction. I may have a hysterectomy if/when that becomes medically necessary. Basically transitioning allows me to look like a man 90% of the time, even when I'm mostly naked. I will be able to walk around in a tiny speedo if I want to and pass as male, among other men, without suspicion. It's been great so far, though at present I still can't remove my shirt without turning a few heads.

My partner is bi, and if he was attracted to me as a "female" or woman, I would not want to be with him... He is very excited about the changes I am having to masculinize myself more, and it helps that he is bi since most gay men are disgusted by vagina. So I have basically a gay boyfriend who likes pussy. I couldn't be happier with that, because he otherwise appreciates my male appearance/identity/demeanor/expression... And unlike a straight guy he isn't attached to my "boobs". We look forward to a flat chest.

I would recommend making sure this is what YOU want, not what your HUSBAND wants. Never let someone else's views dictate your identity. It will come out to haunt you later if you made the decision based on someone else's preferences.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, lol. Just had to get this out there. And I see a few FtMs on on this site so I wanted it to be public (rather than a PM).