Scripting and thumbnailing?

[Asj]

I'm curious about how people script and thumbnail pages.
If you script pages before thumbnailing them, how do you know how to script the pages? How do you know how many panels to have for a page and how much text to put in each panel? And if you tell what to show in each panel, how do you know what to show?

For my Decision fancomic, in the past I'd have trouble planning out more than four or five pages at a time, and I would often need to thumbnail them as I was doing so, to see how many panels to include and when to stop and put the last panel or two on the next page (or to decide if I should add some more panels for something). I think I've gotten a little better at scripting the pages, because I scripted out about 20 recently. Although I think it's mainly because I've thought of those scenes for a long time and can almost picture them. But I still think they'll end up differently after figuring out how to put them on the page.
This is one of the pages (although there may be too much text, and not enough panels):

Spoiler! :

(View of the barrier from the woods, maybe see the sky, too) "No, I'm fine." "Huh? Oh, I just forgot is all." "Wah, now you're making me feel guilty! A lot happened."

(Orihime and Rukia walking in woods, Orihime kind of in background on a phone) "Well, first Ichigo got stuck in a box. And then Rukia lost him! So then I had to help her find him." "How could I fall asleep while all of that was happening, Tatsuki?" "Okay, bye." Rukia thinks, 'Maybe we should have gone another way.'

(maybe add a panel or two to show Orihime looking up in surprise)

But, I was thinking about trying to work on a script for another fancomic, and I don't know if I can script it the same way or not (well, I would like to try scripting out the whole thing, instead of just a few pages at a time). It's a comic-adaptation of a one-shot fanfiction I had began to write awhile ago, and it's in third-person first-person point of view (I used "he" in the fanfiction, but wrote as though from his point of view, so kind of like his thoughts were merged with the narrator's, like, the line "Did that scum bag have his watch?! His State-issued watch?!" is part of the narration). I thought it might be good to include thoughts without thought-bubbles when making the comic, to help show that. But, I can't really figure out how to script pages like that. I feel as though I need to draw it before writing it, because I have little idea how the pages would look (even the first page, and I drew the first page a few years ago before deciding to revise it).

So, how do you go about making a script?

[mitchellbravo]

I kind of make up a bulleted list of the upcoming chapter, then when I get to a comic on that list, do a really rough sketch (basically just some circles and blobs to denote placements) of where everything goes, and then the dialogue doesn't get written until I get to inking.

I tried writing things out more, but I always end up changing so much between the time I get an idea and the time I sit down to draw it that it was't worth taking the time to do as much preplanning. I can feel the flow of something better when I'm sitting down to actually write the thing. Everyone works differnetly of course, and someone whose comic is a big more involved than mine would likely benefit from more of the pre-production aspect.

[H0lyhandgrenade]

Well I can let you know how I do it... Just so happens I have a page here with both my scripting and my thumbnailing on.

First I write the script on the computer. Maybe about half a chapter's worth at a time. But this is very rough and likely to change heavily as I go along- it's basically just so I know where I'm headed, really. If I stuck to the script things would likely be a lot more dull. The final result really comes up when thumbnailing. In this case I wanted to do the thumbnailing and rework this portion of the script on the train, so I scribbled it into my sketchpad to look at later. At this point, I don't know how many pages the script is going to take up.



I start scribbling panels for the page. I'm pretty used to thinking up panels that naturally fit in the shape of the page by now without too much fuss. If I have alternative ideas for a panel I'll sketch 'em elsewhere, see how they look and choose which is gunna look the nicest. The amount of pages' thumbnails I'll work on at a time depends how much the pages relate to each other, and how important the rythym between them feels. On this sheet here I ended up working on two pages' thumbnails.

You can see what the finished pages ended up looking like here if you're interested.

Spoiler! :

[Siliva]

I don't script my comic, but storyboard is that very traditional two-pages-per-sheet-of-paper name-style manga storyboard. It works, though I'm thinking about moving to thumbnails to save time in the future. XD

For example: http://ygo-09.smackjeeves.com/comics/13 ... al-page-1/

[Asj]

mitchellbravo,
Bulleted lists sounds kind'a cool. So it's a list of pages? Do you make a list of events, as well, before the pages?

H0lyhandgrenade,
What's the rough computer script like?
I think it helps. Seeing how other people do things gives me more options.
(by the way, I find it kind of amusing that it's hard to figure out what your thumbnails are of. Except, that one image where George is looking to the left (her right), that one is pretty recognizable to me.)

Siliva,
That's more like what I did when I started trying to make comics, but I kept hearing about writing scripts, and I think it helps me with timing when I write things down. How many pages do you storyboard in advance? Do you do two, and then make the finished pages, or do you storyboard a lot of pages before finalizing things? I often can't sketch out more than a few pages at a time, because I know the pages can change, and it gets to where I no longer know what the next page will show because it depends on the two pages before it (but I can't do it that way for my FMA fancomic ideas, because, the way I want them to turn out, they need to be planned out pretty far in advance).
For my thumbnailing/storyboarding stuff, sometimes it helps me to take a sheet of paper and divide it into several sections (seems like 8 per 1 comic-sized page is a good number for me), and then they're big enough for me to draw pages and show everything I need to, but small enough to quit wasting a lot of paper (and they're all proportional to the comic pages). I can use a ruler to measure the size of the panels I'd decided on, and multiply that number to find out where to put them on a normal page. But sometimes there's still a page I need to see at a larger view.

[H0lyhandgrenade]

H0lyhandgrenade,
What's the rough computer script like?
I think it helps. Seeing how other people do things gives me more options.
(by the way, I find it kind of amusing that it's hard to figure out what your thumbnails are of. Except, that one image where George is looking to the left (her right), that one is pretty recognizable to me.)

Yeah, those are very rough xD They're more just visual notes to me, not really intended to be seen by other people.

I can show you the script for the past few pages. Might be apparent how it's changed in some places from the original, this happens more or less depending. I mostly add more jokes, and things to make the rythym feel better. Slow things up or speed them down if necassary. The --- signifies when I know where I definitely want to end the page, but that doesnt happen all the time and even that can change sometimes. Remember, this is the very very first draught before I get to thumbnailing, and written very quickly.

Spoiler! :

George: Jigglypuff is the puffball pokemon! It's singing is so soothing it can put humans and pokemon alike to sleep! ...Brent, you don't even know what a Jigglypuff is?
Atticus: ... Well I do now...
George: That's... That's kinda sad... You must have lived such a sheltered life.
Atticus: Not that sheltered. Just. Selective. Nature's never interested me that much.
George: Nature? Nature! Pokemon isn't just about nature, it's a way of life!
George: Oh Brent, Brent, you've been missing so much... There's a whole new world to see... *holds her hand out to him* Let me show you.
Atticus: ... *looks at the hand. then goes back to watching Top Gear*
George: >; *grabs the front of his jumper* C'mon =D The night is young and so are we!
Atticus: Gack!
---
George: There's so much to find! Always so much to do! *dragging him down the street* Pewter's a great place, yknow. I've only been here a couple of times! Before my adventure, of course... You know the theme of the city is rocks? It's the city of rock hard determination! Just like a rock pokemon. Ohhh, you haven't faced any of those yet, right? I don't think you'll like 'em, especially if you didn't like fighting that Metapod. Just think of a Metapod that can hit you back and can move and is made of stone! I expect you'll find out soon enough though. Oh, maybe not, since it sounds like you don't want to take on the Gym Leader... That's a pity. I really wanted to go see the Gym, even if I'm not after the badges myself. I'm more about the collecting all the pokemon, y'know. But either way, there's so many rumours floating around about this Gym leader! I'd have loved to see if they were true...
*first she drags him down the street, then they go to the garden where the guys spraying the bugs, then they go to the museum where Atty ends up having to pay for her while she looks at the exhibits, then a house where a man attacks atty for breaking in, then a shop where she fills a shopping basket and he has a black eye*
Atticus: Okay. That, that's great. But please- if we have to be up and about now, can you please just show me the way out of Pewter. Like you said you would.
George: >: ... You're not having fun?
Atticus: Pewter. Way out. Please.
George: Okay, okay... *grumbles* spoilsport. It's right over there.
Atticus: ... What. Just there?
George: Yep. That's the way out. It's been there all the time.
Atticus: ... And you're just letting me go? No guilt trips?
George: Of course =| See you Brent. It was a nice time we had.
Atticus: ... ... Okay. Well. Thanks. ... ... See you, I guess.
George: *waves*
*he heads out. but catches the attention of a guy stood nearby*
---
Guy at exit: You're a trainer, right?
Atticus: Huh? Me?
Guy: The Gym Leader's looking for new challengers! Follow me! *he grabs him by the front and starts dragging him along*
Atticus: Urk!
George: Oh Brent, you're back =D You changed your mind?
Atticus: Who is this guy and what're you paying him )<
George: I dunno, I've never seen him before...
George: Still, it's great that you came back! I knew you just needed the right kind of persuasion.
Atticus: THIS is what you call persuasion?! ... Well I guess I believe that. You know I'm getting really tired of being dragged around Pewter.
Guy: Hey kid, did you check out the museum? Really! You absolutely must go-
Dragging guy: Back of HE'S MINE!!
---

I'm aware at this point the script comes across as pretty naff. It's all in the panelling.

[Asj]

I like the "You!" "Me?" panels that looks like they were added to the last page. I think you're right that it ends up a little more exciting when doing the pages. Also, I immediately latched on to that spoilerly word you removed from the finished page when George is talking about the gym leader. >:) I think that implies that my guess about him was correct.

[H0lyhandgrenade]

I like the "You!" "Me?" panels that looks like they were added to the last page. I think you're right that it ends up a little more exciting when doing the pages. Also, I immediately latched on to that spoilerly word you removed from the finished page when George is talking about the gym leader. >:) I think that implies that my guess about him was correct.

Man I forgot about that. Think I'll just snip that out... Let's just keep this between you and me, okay xD? You certainly get points for observation.

[mitchellbravo]

mitchellbravo,
Bulleted lists sounds kind'a cool. So it's a list of pages? Do you make a list of events, as well, before the pages?

The events and pages mostly coincide, one event per page generally, although sometimes I'll come up to somethign and realize it will take two pages or a page and a half or some such (which I try to avoid nowadays in order to make the pacing more uniform when possible). It's a very vague list, though, and I say to myself "I don't need to write it down, it's all in my head!" and then a month or two down the line I come to look at it and can't fathom what the hell "Absolutely" or "Creepy-ass smile" were supposed to represent. Often I can make a deduction based on context, but sometimes, man

Most of the things that take place in my comic are events I've been mulling over for ages, sometimes years, and it's more a matter of me producing them in the correct, narrative-minded order than making sure I know what is supposed to happen in each plot point.

[Asj]

The events and pages mostly coincide, one event per page generally, although sometimes I'll come up to somethign and realize it will take two pages or a page and a half or some such (which I try to avoid nowadays in order to make the pacing more uniform when possible). It's a very vague list, though, and I say to myself "I don't need to write it down, it's all in my head!" and then a month or two down the line I come to look at it and can't fathom what the hell "Absolutely" or "Creepy-ass smile" were supposed to represent. Often I can make a deduction based on context, but sometimes, man

Most of the things that take place in my comic are events I've been mulling over for ages, sometimes years, and it's more a matter of me producing them in the correct, narrative-minded order than making sure I know what is supposed to happen in each plot point.

Maybe that's the main reason why it seems easier for me to write down the last few pages for my current comic than it was for me to come up with the first pages, since my Decision comic's main plot was thought of in like an hour, and I thought about exciting scenes from the middle or ending a long time before getting there.
I seem to automatically think an event should take a few pages to complete, but I'm probably thinking of it wrong. When I think about it like, "only important things should be in a story" and thinking there's too much text for just one page (which probably means there's too much text period), I guess a scene should have several pages (depending), but there's probably some event or purpose for every page in a scene.

[Paliana]

I've always been interested in other people's process in making pages. But I'm still trying to find a system that works for me. Currently, I don't make a script, rather I make a story guide that includes information about the story, characters, and each chapter in MSWord 2004 (this has a cool notebook thing that you can separate your notes into different sections). I make sections for the story/characters/chapters like so:

Spoiler! :

*Sorry for the blurry stuff, don't wanna give anything away! XD

This guide really comes in handy when I'm about to go into making my thumbnails. Once I'm satisfied with how I want each chapter to play out, I move on to do really rough thumbnails, which I can refer to my guide and change/adjust things to my liking. The guide helps with how I'm pacing each page I suppose, but as far as paneling that's still a challenge for me. XD The picture is really dark, but here's my current set of thumbnails I'm working on now.

[Siliva]

Siliva,
That's more like what I did when I started trying to make comics, but I kept hearing about writing scripts, and I think it helps me with timing when I write things down. How many pages do you storyboard in advance? Do you do two, and then make the finished pages, or do you storyboard a lot of pages before finalizing things? I often can't sketch out more than a few pages at a time, because I know the pages can change, and it gets to where I no longer know what the next page will show because it depends on the two pages before it (but I can't do it that way for my FMA fancomic ideas, because, the way I want them to turn out, they need to be planned out pretty far in advance).
For my thumbnailing/storyboarding stuff, sometimes it helps me to take a sheet of paper and divide it into several sections (seems like 8 per 1 comic-sized page is a good number for me), and then they're big enough for me to draw pages and show everything I need to, but small enough to quit wasting a lot of paper (and they're all proportional to the comic pages). I can use a ruler to measure the size of the panels I'd decided on, and multiply that number to find out where to put them on a normal page. But sometimes there's still a page I need to see at a larger view.

I thumbnail an entire chapter so my editors can improve the layout. XD I often end up storyboarding for the next chapter while one chapter is nearing its end, so I can try and switch seamlessly between the two. Though sometimes I have to take a break to finish the storyboards and start sketching out pages.

[Mr. Henry]

I do short, paragraph summaries of whole chapters, each major scene being explained in as short as one sentence. After that, it's mostly asking yourself(while of course knowing your characters inside out), "How would X character act in y situation?", what would they do? what takes priority to the character's personal goal? And does the current situation get in the way of it? etc.

Once that's all gathered up, I go to thumbnails and work on them by 10s(10 thumbs=10 pages), and then finalize. Best way to go if you want to skip out on spending long hours of scripting/ prefer working straight out of your brain.

[Asj]

Paliana (and Mr. Henry),
That's neat. ^_^ I've tried doing something like that in the past, but I couldn't figure out where to go from a short chapter summary (because a lines like, "Ed wakes up" doesn't magically turn into pages for me). ^_^"

Mr. Henry,
Asking what the characters would do is a good idea... I've been realizing that recently. ^_^" Without doing that, I think I end up with dialogue that sounds not quite right, but if I try to think of how them themselves would react (or even, how I would in that situation), more happens.

[MangaKnight]

I often write the script about 5 pages ahead to know what I have to work with on a text editor or the back of my notebook. It looks kind of like a stage play with *insert action* and so and so says "Blah blah blah." I don't really thumbnail as much as I make preliminary gesture sketches on the page very lightly in pencil. When I see that it is something good, I would start to draw the sketch over the gesture. Then I fill in the details and ink it at the end. If I do not finish the panel, there would be gestures left over on that panel so I can see what would happen next. I do occasionally do thumbnails if I don't have the sketchpad with me.